Episode 2.18 & 2.19 - Eris DeJarnett
Episodes 18 and 19 are a two-part chat with Eris DeJarnett, an interdisciplinary narrative artist, composer, performer, and scholar. In part one, we talk with Eris about eir upbringing in music, their experiences as an openly non-binary person, and the challenges ey have faced in and around the classroom. Part two covers the future of music, how performers and organizations can make lasting change, and learning about some incredible creators to add to our stands. Transcripts to both episodes are listed below!
To learn more about Eris and all their recommended resources, check out the links below!
Eris DeJarnett:
Website - From Dec. 1-31, 2021, folks can get 50% off two scores with code BuryTheDeadname
To listen & learn more about Eris’s works featured in the podcast:
The Dead Scar: https://erisdejarnett.com/product/the-dead-scar-tape-2021/
dreamer//precipice: https://erisdejarnett.com/product/dreamer-precipice-btbn-tape-2020/
Music orgs:
Queer resources:
Pronoun Dressing Room (for trying on new pronouns)
People whose work Eris really admires:
Part 1 Transcript
Carrie Blosser 0:03
Welcome to Diversify the Stand. Together we build a community to listen and learn from the stories and experiences of passionate musicians. I'm Carrie Blosser.
Ashley Killam 0:12
And I'm Ashley Killam. In our second season, we talk with musicians, performers, educators, historians, and entrepreneurs to expand how we think of the music we perform and follow non-traditional career paths. Eris DeJarnett is an interdisciplinary narrative artist, composer, performer, and scholar whose music explores human empathy and relationships. Our interview with Eris was so wonderful that I didn't want to cut anything out, so this is the first of a two-part series. We hope you enjoy part one.
Carrie Blosser 0:41
Thank you so much for joining us.
Eris DeJarnett 0:46
Here I am making a fool of myself immediately.
Carrie Blosser 0:49
No, you're super, everything is super. So we wanted to ask you, how did you get started in music?
Eris DeJarnett 0:55
I have, like, four answers to this because I feel like I'm sort of still getting started in music. But then also I very much on paper look like I already have a career, which is just a weird duality of existence. I will probably actually just start all the way at the top. My name is Eris, my pronouns are they/them, and I also use Elverson pronouns. I was the kid who would spend time at a piano making stuff up after school from probably, like, middle school on realistically, I like, had made a couple of things. And like, you know, my mom was, like, publishing a novel. And so she had me, like, do the music for her book trailer and stuff like that. And so, like, I had, like, these little projects, but like, it wasn't until, like, my sophomore or junior year when someone was like, you're doing all this arranging, and you're also writing a buttload of stuff. Like, have you thought about a composition degree? And I knew that I was probably going to do music something, but I was like, what? I can do that? That's a thing? And turns out, yes. Which was probably good, because my performance teacher at the time told me that I didn't have the work ethic to be a performance major. All righty, then. I guess the comp thing is sounding like a really good idea. And then went and did my comp degree and had a really, really great experience in the composition studio at ASU. Which is funny because I ended up still living down the street functionally. That was when things started getting really weird for me as well, because I did not have particularly good experiences in the performance studios. And for the first two years, we were, like, comp majors at ASU were required to do two years of instrumental study. It's, like, to keep us connected to our, like, performance practices, right. And actually, I don't know if that's changed since they've been more technology friendly, I would have to check. So I did those two years, and I did those in the classical studio. And I was like, alright, it's I think it's really weird to get a critique of my playing. This is how it's been played for 300 years. So you're doing it wrong when it sounds fine. But, you know, I will let them do their thing and just stop playing music by dead people. And that solved most of that problem. And then I was like, you know, I actually I would like to go hang out with the jazz people for a while. And that was a mistake, I learned a lot of things about a lot of people and how the world works, and they were not good things. You know, it's kind of weird, because I very much feel like it set me on a different career trajectory than the one that I probably even originally wanted. Because like, I started blogging because of those experiences. And I started, like, I started doing all of that. And then that eventually started showing up in my work, especially when I started writing about, like, my assaults and stuff like that. And so that altered some things pretty significantly. And when I came back, I got kind of subjected to round two of that. And then we entered a pandemic. So at least I had time to process. But so then I was like, well, screw this, I'm going to grad school, and I'm going to do something else. And the composing had gone well. So I was like, alright, cool, that's fun. But I would also like to do, like, some stuff on my instrument. Because if I don't come away with at least, like, half of a piece of paper about this, nobody's going to actually acknowledge that I can play my instrument, or like, perform more broadly, because I'm not necessarily inherently always attached to the trumpet. And so I went to CalArts, which was the best decision I could have made for myself, frankly, partly because all of a sudden, I was around a lot of queer people. And that was the best thing I probably could have had. I had time to, like, comfortably come into myself and, you know, like, deal with all of that, at least internally, if not publicly. And the nice thing at CalArts is you can kind of just show up to things and, like, if you're a little extra gay, nobody really notices because there's a lot of that going around already. And so figured out at least, like, the bare bones of the gender stuff, still figuring out all of the rest of the gender stuff, but, you know, that's probably a lifelong project. But I also, like, grad school was also really weird as far as formative experiences go, because I switched performance teachers my first semester, which is something that I feel like a lot of people don't talk about. Because a lot of the time, we're just like, I'm going to go hide and be, like, slightly imbued with this sense of, like, self-shame for not being able to, like, make it work, tough it out, whatever the case may be, right. And I was really fortunate because I wasn't doing, like, a trumpet performance degree, I was doing a performer composer degree. And that's basically a blank map. They’re like, you have to do two kinds of lessons, you have to have some performance lessons and some comp lessons, but they're like, we do not care. As long as somebody will take you, you're fine. And so I was really fortunate that when I was not getting to, like, focus on things that I wanted to and, you know, like I was doing some, like, really important fundamentals work that first semester, but I wasn't, I didn't have the guidance that I wanted as far as like, how do I really start taking apart this, like, new stuff? How do I figure out, like, how long something's going to take to learn when it's all extended techniques? How do I, you know, like I had very, like, maybe not very specific, but at least, like, reasonably specific questions that I wanted answered, because I'd been with TAs for four years at that point, all of whom were fantastic, but it wasn't a lot of continuity. And so when that stuff wasn't probably going to show up, and there were some other, like, very uncomfortable gendered moments and things like that. I was like, okay, I want to reset, I want to test the waters, go, like, try some other stuff, figure it out. And I was very fortunate that, like, including that teacher, like, everybody was very supportive. CalArts is pretty much just like, oh, you want to try this thing? All right, cool. Well, go see how it works. And even if not, everybody thinks it's 100% the right perfect choice all the time, like, people are gonna be like, this is the school of go figure yourself out. So go figure yourself out. And I ended up doing my last three semesters, which is the longest I've studied with anyone since high school with Mattie Barbier who's just a really fantastic teacher and human and, you know, now really wonderful friend. And they're 100% the reason I'm still playing my instrument, because I got diagnosed with TMJ my senior year and I finished my first master's recital, they were like, we need to sit down and actually, like, rebuild your fundamentals. And so that was how I spent most of my second, my last year of, like, grad school. And then all of a sudden, I was like, I have a whole show to put together, which means I got to figure out some stuff really fast. And so it's weird, because I've felt like there have been things that have slowed me down or, like, diverted course, both in terms of injuries, and in terms of sexist and queer-phobic garbage, that I was not parsing as both of those things at the same time, when it was happening. A lot of trans people talk about going through, like, sort of like, second puberty, especially if you're going through, like, medical transition, which at least currently I'm not, but as I've been able to start, like, moving through the world a little bit more, like, overtly, honestly, maybe, it's felt like I've had a few moments as I've started to figure that out. Or I'm like, okay, I have to sit down and reset some things and let myself move away from this, like, singular model of “this is what a successful structure looks like,” of you like your teachers all the time, and you do these things, and you do what they tell you to, and you, you know, like, the multi-step process have increasingly smaller hoops to jump through, right? And I've found that particularly, like, because I, at CalArts, I had enough people who were like, no, like, you can break stuff, it's okay. Then all of a sudden, I was in a position where I was like, okay, this is the place for me to go figure some things out and try stuff and start working with dancers and start working with people who are, like, in and around theater, and oh, these performers are actually not going to, like, look at me like I've gotten a second head when I'm like, hey, can we move during this? Will you memorize this? And we can, like, get you megaphones and you can, like, run around the hall? And that was really special because I've been, like, wanting to do these things for so long. But when you only have performers around you who've only ever had, like, a conservatory-style performance school, right, where it's like, you focus on playing your instrument and very little else, right? Some of the adjacent topics and pedagogy and all of that, but like, show me, I want to go see the people who also like musicals or opera or whatever, right? Or who dance even, just in, like, I'm very bad at it but I'm here, like, same. You know? And so, like, I've gotten to the point where I'm, like, all of a sudden looking very seriously at, like, okay, where are the limits of music? Where are the limits of performance, and why do we only talk about performance in a “I'm gonna stand still and play my instrument” kind of a sense? Because my capstone was, like, this 60-70 minute dance theater concert theater-y, like, big assault party, which sounds really weird. I used to remember how I described it on my website. The only reason I didn't write it all myself was because Mattie was like, well, you should probably have some stuff that you get real footage of you playing things by other people. And I'm like, you know, that's not a bad idea. I've had a very, like, back and forth, like, oh, like this year, I'm working more on performing this year, I'm working more on composing, which is, I like that. Because if I need to go somewhere else for a while, because one is too overwhelming, or there's people in that space being garbage, or whatever, I have the freedom to. And it's also meant that I've actually, like, been doing commissioned work for most of my career at this point, include, like, starting all the way back and undergrad, I think the first big paid commission I got was from Alex Wilson, who's at GVSU. And he has commissioned me at this point for two trumpet ensemble pieces for his groups and a solo which is being mixed for his next album. There have been folks that, like, even from, you know, I was 20 at that point, right? 19, maybe? Who were just like, you know, I think you've got some stuff figured out here. Let's do it. And then I got to grad school with a whole bunch of people were just like, hey, so…music? I was like, so…moderately small amounts of money? Because grad school, right. It's kind of shocking to see, like, that even since, like, my freshman or sophomore year, I was always writing with people in mind. And so, like, even if they weren't always paid, they were usually commissions, because someone was like, oh, it would be really cool if we had something like this. I've very, like, lucky that I've had performers who've been willing to invest in, you know, whatever, maybe small ways they can doing new stuff, even when it's just like, oh, well, we have to play a concert for our brass quintet this semester. So if you have anything let us know. TLDR, I don't know how I got started. People were just eventually like, hey, I will actually pay you for this. And I was like, oh, sweet. Let's do it.
Carrie Blosser 12:06
Yeah, I think there's something big when you're saying about what is a successful, like, what does success look like? Or in whatever construct that is, I think that's, we define success is this way, but it's, you're just modeling after what you've seen before. And that's not what the future is going to be anyway, so.
Eris DeJarnett 12:23
Then, like, I wrote a blog on, like, the idea of paying your dues a couple years ago, now. Semester one of real life teaching, right before the pandemic hit, which feels like five months ago, but also, it's fully two years ago at this point. And I'm just like, you know, listen, this, like the ideas of how you get to success work really well for, like, abled white dyadic cis het men. The more other modifiers you have involved, the less likely that is. So yeah, I've been disillusioned for a long time.
Ashley Killam 12:53
I mean, since you've been doing all this blogging and writing and self-discovery in this journey, I'd love to hear your experience or thoughts or advice you have, or maybe you wish you knew when you started that you'd love to pass on to other people that are trying to navigate this musical space that maybe don't fit in, because now you're this openly non-binary person that's spent time figuring yourself out. But that's a whole process.
Eris DeJarnett 13:22
No kidding. I mean, like, it's kind of funny, because we're doing all of this on the tail of you and I having conversations over the last two days where I'm like, I think this is when I start using, like, the new name and not the old name. It's hard because, like, transition in particular and like, dealing with non-cis sides of being queer is of very, like, often interrelated, but individually very different ballgame than like, cis queer struggles, navigation, and all of that, because like, I knew I was ace and vaguely bi, pan, you know, all of that by like, my sophomore, I figured out ace really early, probably like 18 or 19. I say really early is like, you know, today, everyone has the terminology and so all of these wonderful teenagers are like, I actually know who I am. And I'm like, that's amazing. But for me, it was relatively early. So I figured that out, probably sophomore year of college and then, you know, I had inklings about stuff way early. You know, I even, like, I think even as early as my junior year of college, I was like, oh, well, you know, gender fluid is a word I really like. And that was the extent of that conversation for several years. Then it went back in a box because I was dealing with a lot of, like, I don't even know if this is sexist garbage or just blanket garbage at the time, and I did not have, like, the faculty support that I needed to even make that distinction, much less and do anything about it. It's, like, probably artificially slowed the process down for me, because, you know, I remember when I, like, I read somebody’s thread on Twitter about, like, you know, you cannot just learn about, like, gay, lesbian, mspec, aspec people and assume that you know about trans issues, and I was like, you know, that's a really good point, I should learn some more about these things. And then, like, by the second year of my grad degree, you know, I'm having conversations with my then partner of like, um, I'm probably like, actually gender fluid, and especially within the context of CalArts, that wasn't as scary because, like, a lot of us joke that, like, finding a cis het, straight dyadic person at CalArts is the hard part actually. Which is a joy, because, you know, like, life is a little ridiculous in all of these really cool ways, as a result, and you have a lot of people to talk about, while you're trying to talk to while you're figuring stuff out. And so, like, I , you know, I'd had these conversations with some folks, and I hadn't, you know, it hadn't bothered me, and then we moved back to Arizona, and I was, like, I’ll come out eventually, right? Like, we'll figure it out, I'm not gonna, like, lead with that right off the bat, I just got back, I don't want to, like, you know, immediately not get hired for anything. I'm already gonna immediately not get hired for anything, because I have a history here. And a lot of people are very wary about working with me, because I yell at them. And then, like, the few people that did hire me realized that, oh, we're maybe not prepared to do this in, like, a non-cis context either, which was a joy. We can talk more about that later. Actually, I think the thing that really important there, is that the thing that I learned, that is probably one of the scariest parts of transition for me, so far, as someone who doesn't experience trans misogyny and has, like, fewer direct safety concerns, than some of my other friends, at least ideologically, one of the biggest hurdles for me, which is also, like, the thing that I tell people to be prepared for, not necessarily, like, as a value judgment, or to encourage or discourage or whatever, because people need to do what is best for them in the moment, is that when you come out, I, someone on Twitter put it really well, they're like, you will lose almost everything, but not all at once, in a lot of cases, you know. Like, we're more familiar with the kinds of transition stories where, like, you're immediately cut off from everything, and that is still too much of a reality for so many people. At least in my case, it was a lot of, like, you know, I got a lot of likes, when I came out, I got a lot of like, generally supportive comments, which is great. But then when you start putting those realities and, like, associated needs, and, like, requests for appropriate respect into practice, you find that there are some people who, you know, maybe on paper, like, well, that's fine and great, good for you, are not actually interested in, like, accommodating what that means, in, like, the broader sense. And I didn't have to do that in undergrad because I didn't get to do that in undergrad because, you know, particularly I was hanging out with the jazz program, I actually have written in a blog at some point, I think the words I wrote were “I would not have survived, like, my time in that program, if I had understood my queerness well enough to try to perform it.” Because I saw how the other queer kids got treated. There were not very many that were out. And it was appalling. Most of the ones that I knew of did not complete the program, you know, it's not even necessarily, like, systemic, overt, really obvious, like, borderline physical violence kind of stuff. It's just, it's, oh, you're going to get slotted into that role, you're going to get put over there in that corner, you're going to go, you exist kind of separately. And because a lot of that scene relies on hiring your friends, especially when you're still in college, or just out, that really messes with people in their, like, trajectories and to the point that the faculty are like, I don't know why people aren't hiring you, you come to stuff and, you know, and I felt personally, because I didn't feel like I had a whole lot of control of, like, you know, I was being very aggressively gendered despite not wanting particularly to have that experience. Because half the time my gender is just “no.” You know, I got put in these situations and they were like, woman in jazz, and I'm like, wait, hold. We just skipped several steps. And they were like, you're gonna go be friends with the other girls. And I'm like, you know, some of the personalities in this group are very strong and a little at odds with each other. But I came out in the pandemic. So this is my first semester being, like, out at school, and my students have been great, which is fantastic. Every semester with students, no matter what you are, what identity stuff you're dealing with, that can always be hit and miss. And I'm very fortunate that my students are rock stars. There's all of these barriers to access and some of them show up in very overt ways, but some of them I just, I don't have the spoons to do it all and I'm, you know, very lucky that, like, my boss is supportive and, like, he just corrals everyone in the office for pronouns practice, which is the most adorable, like, dad move ever. But, like, even in that moment where I'm like, this is, like, the one of the best of the possible scenarios, I still find myself with, like, there's this big problem that nobody's like, that if this is gonna get fixed it literally, I have to be the one to like, bring it up, and then go in with a fucking PowerPoint presentation. But it is a lot and particularly because, like, I am very public facing and I am Twitter and Twitch and socials, dealing with all of the places, all of the garbage that comes with all of those. I know that the with the work I do, and the things that I'm writing about, and, you know, especially with how relatively open I'm willing to be on the internet about gender and all of that, that, like, death threats probably aren't too far off. That's, like, you know, the trade off. And I have it a lot easier than a lot of my, like, trans feminine colleagues and friends, certainly. And so which is why, like, half the time, I'm the one diving into comment sections, and I'm happy that I get to do all of this. And I've had the space to, like, speak to my experience in ways that sort of set an expectation that people treat me well or get out, right. But it's hard because I have managed to experience a lot of the, like, crappier parts of it, but I haven't gotten to just, like, I'm happy that I'm more rooted in who I am. And that I'm not, like, stuck pretending to fit into these boxes that people have put me in.
Ashley Killam 21:33
It's like the type of thing where you start to learn about something, you learn a little bit about something, and then you realize how much you don't know. I mean, it's the type of thing, but you're so far in, you’re far enough in that you can't turn around.
Eris DeJarnett 21:46
Yeah, no. And like, in some moments, it's really great to be on, like, I'm on this Rocket League Discord server, right? That's like, Phi Mu Alpha folks, largely. And so there's, like, a lot of dudes on there. I can count the gender marginalized people on one hand. It's nice, because I can be like, I need a boy to give me an opinion on this thing. Or like, tell me about this. Or like, you know, I'll pop in and be like, you guys have had pockets this big forever? You know, and like, that's something that they can all, like, engage in with me. And it's very, like, fun and adorable. And they're like, aw that's cute. And I'm like, I know, right? You know. And so like, it's weird that, like, a lot of, like, my best validation in a lot of these cases comes from all of these, like, cis gamer nerds.
Ashley Killam 22:32
Gosh, everything you said there. I think it's incredible that you had the space at CalArts, you had the space and the community that helped start this journey. And I'm glad that you can be that safe space for students that feel comfortable. And you can share that, you know, there's more than just like, quote, unquote, like, “one way” to do things or one way to be and I'm glad that—take at least the spoons you have that you can be that voice for others who don't, because that's so important. And it's, like, just to commend you for that because it's really hard. It is really a lot. Here's an excerpt from Eris’ work The Dead Scar. This is a work for fixed media chronicling loss and the effects of transphobia in eir life.
Unknown Speaker 23:28
I have written 1000 little moments, over and over. Memories of the wounds I've lived.
Eris DeJarnett 23:50
I've laid them all out end to end as they stretch beyond pages and bind themselves back into my skin.
Unknown Speaker 24:13
I have written a record of 1000 runes that have seared their paths through my mind. So the only way to remember what they were is to sift through the wreckage.
Unknown Speaker 24:37
A long forgotten trail across seven years. Past teachers who chose again and again to do nothing, and so-called friends, whose support only extended to the limits of my own invulnerability. Hidden in the underbrush, our boundaries I allowed others to trample as I let them in close. Above me in the canopy are flashes of scarlet I ignored out of sheer necessity.
Unknown Speaker 25:17
The scorched Earth of 1000 wounds is a reminder not only of each act of losing, but of how much easier it was to give of myself, when I still believed my peers would care. 1000 little moments now seemed to foreshadow, hinting that the great acceptance and care I sought was no longer attainable. 1000 little moments over and over, bursting out of my memory onto the page and back into a form I cannot ignore. But among the brambles and char and forking paths, I never took a quiet, calm returns, that knows the queerness I eventually claimed, never would have been accepted, no matter if I held all of my boundaries, or none of them. I remember the people who forced those impossible choices, and I start collecting boundaries from the underbrush.
Carrie Blosser 26:45
So you work for, you mentioned earlier, you're teaching at two different colleges and adjucting. And I feel like there are a lot of people that are adjuncting out there in the world. But we don't necessarily hear too much about balancing between, you know, two universities. And we'd love to talk about kind of your experiences doing that so far this year, also composing and, when the world turns back on again, performing, too. So what have your experiences been over the last couple years?
Eris DeJarnett 27:11
Yeah, so, like, full disclosure, I got both of these gigs because I had been performing with a few of the folks who were already on, like, residential faculty before I left, and then I came back and I was like, hey, like, does anybody happen to have anything that they need covered? And the answer was yes, please take all of the, like, popular music history courses. And I was like, you know, I've got a composition degree and a half and half a performance degree. But, okay. And I really loved doing it, actually, because I'm like, very quickly, it was like, oh, wait, I get to talk about like, how politics impact music production? This is 100% my lane, but one of my bosses had, like, after he hired me, but like, as I was, like, getting into it, and he was trying to make sure that I was going to be comfortable and, like, reasonably prepared and all of that, he was like, you know, I think, like, you, I trust you to do a really good job on, like, race and gender in ways that I don't think we, like, functionally necessarily are, like, we don't have that range quite right now. A lot of my, like, recent conversations have been like, we really need to find, like, where the Black hip hop scholars are in the valley and hire them for this hip hop class, because they should be getting paid to do this. And they would make our—you know, it's still a relatively young course for us. So it would make our content a lot more solid and have, you know, you'd have, like, real direct, like own voices guidance about how to lead people through all of this stuff. You also have to get your white faculty to listen to them about how that should be done, which is another issue entirely. But we need to start finding those folks and then convincing them to adjunct which is not an easy thing, because income instability is the worst. You know, I went even just this semester, I went from being offered three or four classes, to then they took away our mask mandate for the summer and then didn't put it back until, like, the week before school started. And so I was like, I can't teach at two campuses if we're not going to have masks and, like, I can't ethically justify doing that. And I know I'm giving up—I've swung from four classes, which is, like, my cap as an adjunct to probably one. Thank God my partner has a job, to I am suddenly teaching four again, and they all managed to make, but you also don't know that until the week before school starts. So I don't make my, like, I have syllabi for all of these at this point, but I don't go in and edit them and change my pronouns and things like that, you know, updating all of that, I don't do that until the week before classes, because what's the point of doing all the work if I'm not going to get the course. And then sometimes if those classes make but one of the residential faculty has a class that doesn't make, then they have to take one because they have to teach X number of credits or whatever. So it's a whole mess. And you know, half the time, like, I haven't seen a *contract* contract in, like, several semesters, and I'm sure that's more easily exploitable because we're in a pandemic, and enobody knows what's going on, and everybody's super burned out and all of that, but like, I know more or less how much I get paid, but I have not seen the number in a while. And so it's like, alright, well, we budget the best we can and hope it works. Again, partner with a full time job helps a lot. If you can get past the “we have one class to offer you”part and get to the point of either multiple campuses have classes for you, or somebody has more than one, it's doable, it's not comfortable, but it's doable. But at the same time, that is such a big barrier to entry for folks, because it's like, who has the, you know, like, the most likely people to have, like, the financial stability to, like, put up with a bad semester, whether it's your first one or somewhere in the middle without just quitting are, you know, people who benefit from generational wealth who are largely white. And, you know, very fortunate that I was in that boat that I had, you know, had been able to, like, accrue enough savings to make that first, like, semester work. But that is largely because I've, you know, like , that's something that I had access to from generational wealth, and so like, it's weird this semester, because everyone is super, super burnt out and you don't get to be super picky about your assignments because it's either you teach or you don't.
Ashley Killam 31:46
Tune in next week to hear more questions and another great work by Eris. And a heads up: from December 1st to 31st 2021, listeners can get 50% off two scores with code BurytheDeadName by visiting Eris’ website. The code and all of the website links can be found in the podcast notes and on our website. Thank you for listening to Diversify the Stand. I'm Ashley.
Carrie Blosser 32:09
And I'm Carrie. If you'd like to support us and our projects, find us on social media and visit our website. We now have a store where you can pick up some Diversify the Stand gear.
Ashley Killam 32:18
And as always, a huge thank you to Trevor Weston and Whitney George for allowing us to use their compositions in our podcast. The musical introduction is Trevor's trumpet duet Fanfare for Changes, and the ending music is Whitney's Incantations for trumpet and piano. Both composers’ websites are listed in the podcast description.
Carrie Blosser 32:36
Until next week, what's on your stand?
Part 2 Transcript
Carrie Blosser 0:03
Welcome to Diversify the Stand. Together we build a community to listen and learn from the stories and experiences of passionate musicians. I'm Carrie Blosser.
Ashley Killam 0:12
And I'm Ashley Killam. In our second season, we talk with musicians, performers, educators, historians, and entrepreneurs to expand how we think of the music we perform, and follow non-traditional career paths. This is part two of our conversation with interdisciplinary narrative artist, composer, performer and scholar Eris DeJarnett. We hope you enjoyed part one of our talk, and we are so excited to continue and share our chat with them. And Eris has a sale happening this month until December 31, 2021. Listeners can get 50% off two scores with the code, BURYTHEDEADNAME by visiting Eris’ website. The code, website links, and everything can be found in the podcast notes and on our website. Where do you see or how do you see the future of music moving in regards, maybe, to overall inclusivity, gender, race, you name it?
Eris 1:07
Yeah, okay, so I have, like, a lot of things that are not necessarily all completely related. And I probably didn't put them down in the right order. So we'll probably jump around, sorry. I think like, if we want to, like, focus on doing it right, because, like, the future of music and inclusivity is some people are gonna continue doing it very wrong, and probably not apologize for far too long. But as I've started to get roped into conversations at school and other places, right, people who are like, hey, you know how to do this? I'm like, well, I mean, I have experience, really just figuring this out as I go. I’m white, so there's, like, only so much I'm going to be able to speak to, like, I think it's really important that we start focusing on, like, setting the groundwork before we just launch stuff, because I've seen a lot of things in the last, like, couple years, especially because I've been, like, starting to identify them more and talk about them, rather than just seeing them go by and be like, mhmm, where it's like, oh, all of a sudden, like, you're doing this thing, and there's a very clear misstep in how you've worded it or how you've structured it or, like, you've very clearly not considered some part of, like, the what this is going to do as far as consequences for the people that you're trying to involve or include, there's not been enough groundwork done to make sure that you have the, like, the knowledge base to be able to go, okay, we at least have the understanding of this is how we understand best practices to work in this regard. We have talked to people who actually experienced this, and are educators on it, or people who are willing to share knowledge that isn't just like, well, this is kind of how I've navigated through it on my own. Seeing a lot of people who are just like, we have to do diversity stuff. And then you just, like, go, and you kind of find yourself course-correcting over time, which does a lot of eroding of trust and things like that, right? Like I, you know, but like, Ashley, you and I met IWBC. And I've tried to be in conversation with them and was told that they had it covered. And it continued to be a problem when, like, they put out calls, I don't even, I think it was a competition or something like that, right? Of, like, something they were looking for submissions for. And every marginalized gender identity that they accepted was included as an asterisk after the word woman, which really speaks to a distinct lack of education, because if you have not yet learned to see trans masc folks and trans men, and, like, assigned female at birth non-binary people who are not comfortable being lumped in with women for, you know, many understandable reasons, and for assigned male at birth non-binary people who are maybe not trans feminine, who might be a gender or have some other identity, right? That doesn't necessarily mean that they, you know, like, or maybe they just don't change their presentation very much or things like that. Right? That isn't a useful term for everybody you're trying to include there. And, you know, like, having those conversations and then, you know, usually when that happens, and it's, like, an org that I've, you know, like, been involved with, you know, like, I, like, send an email and I’m like, listen, I'm, like, happy to come in and talk, like, you know, in cases like that, usually I'll even do it for, like, less money than I should be making for it. But then I get told, oh, we're good. We have people coming in already and I’m like, well, are they—like, if that doesn't turn into results, then, like, what's happening here? And they changed the wording at some point, but it still was not ideal. And I can't even remember what they changed it to. I think maybe they used female-identifying first, and I was like, there are some decisions about that as well, because not all of us are. And a lot of the time that's used specifically to, like, scapegoat trans women and some people are completely fine with it. But some people are very not, right. And so I think those were the two at play, and I can't remember which order those happened in. But like, I was like, literally “gender marginalized people” is the term you want, if you are really trying to include trans men and everybody else, and I’m just over here being like, alright, I'll be chillin, and I don't know how I'm gonna come to your conference again, which is hard, because that was, like, one of the nicest places I've gotten to be as far as, like, having people who are not just in, like, the straight cishet, white man category, and I don't know how I'm going to go back. Because I would really like to, but I don't want to be lumped into “hey, ladies,” because I'm like, listen, listen, like, like, my gender is very confusing and complicated, but there's, like, some other stuff floating around in there that I have not yet identified, but it's definitely not all “girl or no,” there's a lot of other stuff going on in there. That is definitely not something I'm okay with. And, you know, like, I don't even know how I would get through, like, the frickin welcome meeting, you know? Things like that, where I'm just like, have you really thought about what it means to include these people? Have you thought about what you need to do to make sure that the groundwork is there, and that they're actually going to show up and feel like they should be there and that you're happy for them to be there, and that they are an important and, like, included part of your demographics that you are trying to capture? And like, yes, women was used as a catch-all term for a large contingent of gender marginalized people up until relatively recently, historically speaking. And yes, it is, like, a legal class identifier in specific ways. But that doesn't mean that you get to just put “women” on top of everything, expect that all of the trans people in your community are going to get get behind you and show up and give you the money to pay for, to go to your conference, and all of that. It's a lot to ask, it's weird, because very, like, you know, on site, I would be welcomed into that space. But a lot of my colleagues who are also trans and non-binary would not be, and that's, you know, or people would be very, like, hmm, you know, like, there would be those manifestations of transphobia of, like, this does not look like what I think a gender marginalized person should look like, and things like that, and I don't want to put my time and effort into organizations that are not working for them, you know. But, like, especially because at the same time, I see groups who are, even if incrementally, working in that direction, like Fifth Wave Collective, I've worked with them a number of times, they started as, like, promoting women composers, specifically. And I've seen them shift, because they, for the long time, their hashtag was #HearHerNow, they've now added #HearThemNow, I have, you know, personally, and I would have to talk to other folks who have been around that group to get, like, a better sense, but my journey of watching how that's evolved, you know, because I was really scared when I came out, I was like, I'm not going to be able to like, make music with these people anymore. And I've really liked the collaborations we've done because they put really, really great effort into, like, a lot of my very trauma-focused work. Which is not something that I usually am really comfortable with, as far as like, just, like, sending it out into the ether, and they've done a really great job. You know, and so it's been really nice to be like, oh, you're, like, not only for myself, but for other people who should be in that boat of, like, getting gender marginalized composers played and things like that, you know, I'm like, I want to be able to be like, hey, all of my trans friends can go, like, go get a load of what they're doing, you know, because we don't get to make those recommendations as often. You know, if we want to be doing this work, we need to really focus on, like, community and, like, connecting to the people that are around you, and thinking about how we're leaving people out, you know. It's so easy to just, like, hang out with the people you went to school with, or the people you went to x conference with, or whatever, right, like, whatever the case may be, and just kind of be like, okay, well, you know, these are my people, but then, like, okay if we’re sayin we’re inviting everyone to something, who does “everyone” mean? Who are we forgetting? Who are we saying, oh, well, you know, you work in this other genre. So I don't think you're gonna like this very much. Why are we not still reaching out and letting them make that decision for themselves? Like, why are we not inviting the popular music program people out to go see this gig? Why are we not doing, why are we not networking between composition majors and Jazz Studies majors? And, you know, like, why are we not talking to performers throughout their degrees about how to work with composers, good lord. You know, because, like, the connections that you make through those things are the things that, like, make music fun, because we all know that, like, five of us are gonna win orchestra jobs and the rest of us are gonna have to figure out life, right? We're very much stuck in this situation where we're, like, expected to pay into this cycle that overwhelmingly rewards people who are willing to uphold white supremacy, you know, via obvious, like, overt racism via the enforcement of the gender binary via transphobia. Right, because a lot of those things were, like, reinforced by race scientists in the 18- and early 1900s to, like, distinguish between, like, white and non-white people. And to be like, oh, well, you know, we're superior because we can achieve this idealized, like, gender binary, which is ridiculous. And like, but that's where a lot of, like, all of that stuff plays into then imperialism and everything else, right? Are you being, like, when you're talking about somebody's work being, like, “not right for you,” Are you, like, talking about it from a respectability standpoint from, are you like, being a genre purist? Are you just, like, at a point where, like me, you're rehabbing injuries, and you just can't do stuff, I don't know if I'm ever gonna have real high range. And that's just something that I'm gonna have to deal with. And I'm probably gonna end up commissioning a lot of work to, like, accommodate for that, you know, once I have stable income, you know, and like, how are we using all of these things and the connections that we make with each other to redefine success from beyond those really, like, strict standpoints of, like, oh, go win the job, go do the thing. And then play the same five concerts every year for the rest of your life. Like, especially as a composer who works with a lot of performers, who oftentimes are, like, relatively new on their journey of working with composers, which is great, because I get a lot of students, right? You get to like, talk to them and help them figure stuff out. But you also get people who, like, you know, have DMAs and are running calls for scores that I end up emailing with, like, I've been doing that with a couple of groups lately of like, do you realize how much of an inconvenience you're asking for by looking for a work that's never premiered that you want exclusivity for until this point, that you're, like, the performances of are probably not going to result in us getting more work and, like, it doesn't necessarily have to, but if you're asking for pieces from strangers, and offering relatively little tangible benefit, like, that's, that's a big thing to ask for exclusivity for, for, like, a really long time, as far as, like, tangible things, like, commissioning is really important, because it is how we a lot of us make most of our money at this point in time. But also, like, remembering that you are going to be really helpful by not just being like, I'm going to give the first performance because a lot of things don't get second performances, because everyone wants a world premiere. Nobody wants a second performance, or, like, relatively few people, right? Ashley is one of the people that have, like, break the mold. I've been working on my CV because I'm applying for a couple of things. And I have literally, like, a half page of performances of Zero G on my CV, and it's a formatting nightmare, in the best of ways, because you just go around and you play it at your lectures and clinics. And it's just, I’m like, repeat performances. I saw something on Instagram the other day of, like, a lot of a lot of performers, like, get something ready and then only play it once. And I'm like, well, that's a big important part of why we get so anxious. But also why are we only playing something once? Like, you're all gonna play Hindemith about 47 times, play stuff more than once, even like, I struggle to play things more than once because I'm not primarily a performer. I don't go out and book, like, solo gigs, right. But even I find ways to play stuff, like, I'm trying to, like, a lot of these works that I work on, I’m like, this is going to be an evolving relationship over the course of several years, because I am, like, playing it at the point that I can right now. And then I'm going to be able to play it a little differently in two years, you know, I've been playing Weltenenden, the flugelhorn movement of Weltenenden, Adriana Höelszky. I played it at IWBC, and that was, like, the first big performance of it I gave and I'm like, I there are still, like, big tangible things that I want to be able to do with that work that I've not been able to do yet. We need to be playing stuff more, you know, and if you want to really develop relationships with composers, especially marginalized composers and performers and what have you, right, like, the continuing investment in their work past a single engagement of a commission or of a “I really like your stuff,” right? That something, that's how you grow those things. And it's not just, oh, well, you know, I commissioned you once and now I'm going to, like, you know, give myself a pat on the back, like, hey, commissions are great. They're very needed. They're very important. However, you're not— it's much easier to be in community with people when you spend time investing in their work consistently.
Ashley Killam 14:07
This episode's featured work is dreamer//precipice, a piece for bass trombone and fixed media, performed by Nick St. Croix. This was a work written for his birthday and was included on Eris’ album Weakness.
Unknown Speaker 14:22
Some days I like to think I saw you coming even though I know that's a lie. There were maybes. Could have beens. Moments of maybe if I'd been ready. But they lived in that corner of my mind of impossible dreams. Of maybe some days, with moments of if I ever get the chance.
Unknown Speaker 14:59
But time and space are not kind. So I guarded my heart. I know I could have seen you coming, because when I was watching you, you gazed back. There was laughter and the odd late night. There were moments where you'd give me a piece of yourself, like I was supposed to have it all along
Unknown Speaker 15:50
But you lived with the impossible dreams. The maybe some days. The if I ever have the chances. And time and space are not kind, so I guarded my heart. I've never been the kind of girl who was courted and swept off her feet.
Unknown Speaker 16:28
The only loves I've had have been the ones I fought for. And maybe that's why the dreams stayed dreams for so long.
Unknown Speaker 17:02
Some days, I know I should have seen you coming. Because you're a dreamer among the impossible dreams. My could have been’s are your might be’s. My maybe’s are your probably’s. And there are still moments where you give me a piece of yourself. Like I was supposed to have it all along.
Unknown Speaker 17:33
And time and space are not kind. So I'm sending a piece of me with you. Some days, I like to think I saw you coming. Because now I listen to this one song over and over and over. And the only thing I can match it with is you.
Eris 18:27
Okay, so how am I diversifying my stand? Which is kind of funny, because I'm, like, primarily not a performer. So I was like, how am I answering this question? I started writing, like, a list of, like, concessions I'm no longer willing to make functionally, as we go back to, like, as close to normal life as we may ever get again. Things that I want to do as a teacher and as a composer and as a performer, and that includes, like, not taking token gigs anymore. When I am in the position where I can, like, turn down a spot on a gig or where I can, you know, like, be in control of what we're doing where, not playing at places that are not, that are, like, really explicitly not disability accessible. And, like, wheelchair accessible, specifically, you know, like, people who need mobility aids should still be able to come to this stuff. Or, like, I don't want to ever be on an all-white panel, I don't want to do it, I will turn it down and be like, hey, you need to put someone else in my spot, you know, things like that and making sure that I'm firming up, like, what I am able to do here. And then figuring out how that, how I can keep expanding what I'm doing as we, like, you know, continue moving through the world. And one of those is I'm hoping that as I start— I have not been learning rep, right, I have not been working on trumpet playing pretty much at all, particularly with, like, my TMJ has been acting up a little bit. So I've been taking most of my time off the horn for the last year honestly. But, like, I don't want, I would like to make sure that I'm learning rep from at least as many marginalized composers that I am from, like, cishet white guys. And so that's, like, one of the big things as far as how I'm, like, looking at more rep. And also, like, I'm trying to make sure that I'm engaging with people's work in performance practice beyond, like, my primary instrument, because I don't necessarily just be performing as playing trumpet, because I've been dancing my whole life and playing other things and doing other things and all of that, but also because, like, oh, if I only know—like, actually, most of the composers I know, like, don't write for my instrument, or haven't written for my instrument, or, you know, and I dig them because I like what they're doing, right? Or, you know, like they've written for it in combination with others, but, like, they don't have solo stuff, or they don't have chamber things that are really going to be feasible for me to play. But I'm like, okay, let me go listen to everything else, right? Like, specific people that I'm looking for, like, either on the, like, “commission someday when I have money” list or, like, the “I would really like to play this particular thing as it becomes available.” Nebal Maysaud, who I’ve already mentioned, has a piece that's just got premiered and will probably be available. I don't know when exactly it's coming out for everybody, but I've already, like, shown up in their DMs, I’m like, I want that as soon as, when you're allowed. I'm taking this, just letting you know, we'll be purchasing, you know. Like, I've been into a lot of stuff about, like, people who've ended up working with, like, theater and dance-adjacent people and, like, opera-adjacent people which is very much, like, the sphere that I would love to exist in more, like The Honorable Elizabeth A. Baker, who's, like, one of my favorite people. And then we're just also casually Facebook friends. And I'm like, I'm gonna just be normal over here even though, like, I think you're great. And like, a lot of these people have, like, really great writing on stuff also, like, she put out A’int I A Woman Too, which, oh gosh, is that on I Care if You Listen, or, I think it's on New Music Box. But that's really fantastic. She's got, like, a couple of books that I'm hoping that I will pick up once I start reading again, and my brain starts working. She's got, like, object and surface studies that I'm really, really interested in that I would love to, like, start looking into, like, if that's something that I could maybe come back to on the earlier side of performance. brin solomon is one of my, like, favorite followers on Twitter. And it's got really great writing on a whole bunch of things. It wrote a whole series for New Music Box on, like, creating a framework for responsible trans casting particularly in, like, opera and music theater making stuff. And it's got, like, a whole song cycle about, like, experiences that trans feminine people deal with, and, like, that's, like, very deeply imbued with humor in very queer ways and I love it. That's called Defiant, Majestic and Beautiful. I have been really digging Cait Nishimura recently, she's got a whole bunch of brass stuff that I found on her website. Diana Wallace is really great. She's on Twitter, that's where I found her. She's got, like, a really great piece for, like, cello. It's just beautiful. It does really great stuff with, like, open strings. And Alex Temple is on faculty at ASU and she joined not too long after I left and I'm like, God, that would have been the best. And she's, like, one of my favorite people when, like, you know, when I was, like, starting to find people who actually talk about being trans and composing, she was one of the first people that I found and, you know, and she's got a really great piece for trombone. But I also like people that have been digging into, like, ideas or like, subject matter that I really like. One of my friends from CalArts, Tanner Pfeiffer, has a piece that—I don't know if he's given to anybody else. I've seen him perform it twice, once in a, like, fully lit classroom. And once on his graduation recital called Murdered Like Me, which is, it's for, like, voice and viola. And he does both. And it's, like, talking, it takes you through all of these ways in which, like, gay and queer men have been murdered and, like, contextualizing that within, like, a very queer lens, and I've heard it and both times I was just like, well, God damn, that's good. Yeah, that’s one of those pieces that I, like, walk out and then I have to think about life for a while. I've been meaning to learn Wild Winged One by Liza Lim, literally since the first year of my masters, and I have not been at the point where I can attempt it. And if I can get my high range working again, at least a tiny, tiny, bit, I'm 100% going to do it because it's so cool. The Höelszky Weltenenden, I'm still really, like, digging. I will probably always be working in that piece, because I think there's just so many things that you can do with it. But then I also try to make sure that I'm, like, listening to musicologists and folks who are doing stuff like that, too. Matthew Morrison's Black Sound essay has been really pivotal for me as far as my teaching, because he talks about, like, how minstrelsy is like, the specific ways in which minstrelsy is like, directly connected to, like, the appropriation and development of like, and like, you know, forced removal of the Blackness in some cases from Black aesthetics in popular music. And that's, you know, I teach rock and hip hop, like, I open both of those classes with that essay now. And like, I have a whole PowerPoint. Imani Mosley has been writing some really cool stuff about, like, I have one of her essays on, like, BLM and Say Her Name and, like, Black death and necropolitics and performance, and it's so cool, like, all of it is just, like, there's all of these folks who are doing really, really amazing work. And, you know, like, I'm really lucky that I also am around people like Christi Jay Wells, who was one of my music history teachers, and is one of the reasons that I can do what I do today, because I was like, uh, gender, question mark? When we were doing term papers, and they were like, okay, so here's like, three dissertations that you'll probably want, and, like, sort of the rest is history from there. Because it was one of those first moments where I was like, wait, you mean people are, like, writing about this, like, all of this bullshit that I'm putting up with, people are like, academizing it and doing this stuff. And, like, I can read about it by people who are not going to gaslight me, that was really pivotal. And so I've been very lucky to be around folks like that. And that's a lot of the work that I've been doing has almost more to do with, like, what I do outside of, like, when I come into practice, whether I'm composing or playing or whatever, and making sure that I'm prepared to address, like, the implications in the music that aren't just in the music, but in who's allowed to make it and why.
Carrie Blosser 26:48
Thanks so much for joining us. This has been great.
Eris 26:50
Yeah, well, thank you. This is— I have not gotten to do something like this since I came out.
Ashley Killam 26:54
A huge thank you to Eris for joining us today. For all of eir links and recommended resources, check out the podcast notes on our website. And tune in next week for two week’s worth of Carrie and I recapping our second season and saying nice things about our guests. Thank you for listening to Diversify the Stand. I'm Ashley.
Carrie Blosser 27:12
And I'm Carrie. If you'd like to support us and our projects, find us on social media and visit our website. We now have a store where you can pick up some Diversify the Stand gear.
Ashley Killam 27:22
And as always, a huge thank you to Trevor Weston and Whitney George for allowing us to use their compositions in our podcast. The musical introduction is Trevor's trumpet duet Fanfare for Changes, and the ending music is Whitney's Incantations for trumpet and piano. Both composers’ websites are listed in the podcast description. Until next week, what's on your stand?